Counsellor , deputy chairman of the National Council for Human Rights, speaks to Samir Sobhi Before presiding over Egypt's Judges' Club for over 10 years, started out his legal career as a prosecutor-general. Later on, he headed the Ethics Court and Court of Cassation. Shaker was also president of the Supreme Judiciary Council, and on 8 February of this year he was selected as Boutros Boutros-Ghali's deputy in the National Council for Human Rights. Is there a place for human rights in the educational curriculum? First of all, I must mention the efforts being made to improve education. We see education as the cornerstone of progress and development. The development of education is not confined to upgrading curricula, but also extends to upgrading the education strategy in general. This is what the president said when he attended the opening session of the National Education Conference. He said then that reforming education was a main component of the reform process, stressing the need to upgrade the structure of the education system as well as its content. In this context, the culture of human rights has been emphasised in various stages of education. Human rights organisations have felt the positive impacts of this, as students tend to take an interest in the material prepared for this purpose, such as booklets, research material, or essays about human rights. In addition, I am currently coordinating with the Ministry of Education and the Ministry of Higher Education with a view to introducing human rights as an independent subject in pre-college and college education. We need to give human rights the attention it deserves. I believe that the introduction of human rights as an independent subject in education is a promising step. I see this as a national issue that deserves the support of the National Council for Human Rights (NCHR), civil society groups, and the competent government departments. This matter is a top priority for the NCHR. How far are human rights respected in this country? In cooperation with various civil society groups and government departments, the NCHR is making efforts to disseminate the culture of human rights. There is no doubt that these have boosted human rights in the country. Now we have larger scope for freedom of expression and opinion. Also, the number of recognised political parties in the country has increased. Civil society groups are more assertive, and the media has more freedom than before. Other improvements have also taken place. The thing that matters most is that Egyptians now know their rights and duties better and know how to defend their rights and react to violations. I know this for a fact, looking at the number of complaints that the NCHR receives, as well as the answers we give back. Violations take place in this country, exactly as they take place elsewhere in the world. The number of violations changes from one country to another according to the dominant culture and the responsiveness of government departments to complaints received. Is there a balance to be struck between human rights on the one hand and the enforcement of the law on the other? There are violations, and one cannot deny that. But the law reacts to these with a firm hand. Look at the number of security service personnel who have faced trial and received stiff sentences for violations, and you will see this for yourself. To what extent do human rights groups support citizen rights? There are several civil society organisations that are active in defending citizen rights. There is also cooperation going on in this regard with the NCHR, and various workshops have been held on this issue. Conferences have also been held, and we regularly meet with civil rights groups to discuss ways of boosting citizen rights. Does the NCHR receive many complaints? How many of these are acted upon? First of all, I have to say that the NCHR complaints bureau is getting more efficient all the time. We have introduced better working methods and opened associate offices outside Cairo. We have also established a follow-up system for the complaints we send to the competent authorities. We have a toll-free number for people to call, and the vast majority of the complaints we receive are acted upon. Accepting "the Other" is part of the culture of human rights. What are you doing to encourage this idea? The idea of accepting the Other is sometimes seen as a message confined to adults alone. However, if we are to spread the culture of human rights, we cannot confine ourselves to adults: we have to bring up a new generation that accepts those who are different in colour, gender, appearance, or religion, as well as those who are different in culture. We need to establish psychological and social harmony. We have to emphasise that accepting the other is essential to understanding the self. One doesn't need to embrace the culture of the other in order to accept it. However, there is a need to recognise the existence of other cultures, and we can do that without sacrificing our own culture. Do foreign countries interfere in human rights? If you mean that human rights in Egypt are influenced by foreign countries, then this is not the case since the country has a strong government that is not susceptible to interference. However, in other countries, such as Iraq or Gaza among others, things are different and not only does interference take place but so does a willful usurpation of human rights that is unacceptable according to all international norms and to all the major religions. The international conscience needs to wake up, for what is happening in such places constitutes a violation not only of human rights but also of humanity as a whole. Do people treat human rights as a business in Egypt? If so, how should this be acted upon? There are people who look at human rights as a business, the aim being not to promote human rights as such, but rather to promote a hidden agenda. Such operations receive funding from certain quarters, and the law entitles us to monitor them. However, because of the freedom of opinion and expression, we can only limit their pernicious impact by exposing the lies they spread. There is a need to expose the reality of such operations to the public and respected civil- society groups, since the latter need to stop cooperating with such operations. Are the rights of those working in the human rights field fully protected? This brings us back to what I said earlier. If someone knows his or her rights, he or she will be able to defend them. As the second goal of the National Plan for the Promotion of Human Rights, the NCHR has made the dissemination of human rights principles a priority in Egypt. It is through knowledge that one can protect one's rights. It is also a good sign that the NCHR receives complaints of human rights violations, and these are acted upon. Judges should be the embodiment of human rights. Are they? A judge has a lofty mission, for it is his job to defend justice. In some ways, it is a mission that has something almost religious about it. I don't think that human rights are about anything if they are not about justice and righteousness. When a judge rules in a just manner, he promotes human rights. When he treats everyone as equal regardless of colour, sex and creed, he promotes human rights. Don't delays in the judicial process endanger human rights? Delays in the judicial process border on injustice, but we cannot blame the judges alone for them. The litigators, the lawyers, the sheer amount of legal documentation all tend to slow down the course of justice. Lawsuits can get very unwieldy, and in fact criminal cases tend to be resolved more quickly than civil cases, since in the latter lawyers can slow the process down through filing excessive memoranda. Does fanaticism undermine human rights? Fanaticism comes in many shapes and sizes, all of which flout human rights agreements. It is a well-known fact that one of the main principles enshrined in the UN Charter is that of preserving the dignity and upholding the equality of all people. All UN member states have pledged, in cooperation with the UN itself, to take the necessary steps to consolidate the universal respect for human rights and guarantee basic rights for all peoples without exception. Nevertheless, we still see fanaticism and discrimination operating in various countries. In this country, fanaticism is less virulent than elsewhere, and many instances of it can be ascribed to individuals acting alone. However, we are doing all we can to stamp out fanaticism. Discrimination against people on any account is an insult to human dignity. Isn't the task of protecting human rights a hard one, particularly in Third World countries? Of course there are difficulties, but we are all trying to achieve the desired objectives through cooperation with organisations around the world, as well as within the Third World itself. Human rights organisations have been established within and outside the UN, as well as at the Non-Aligned Conference and the Afro- Asian People's Solidarity Organisation. Yet, we need more efforts in this regard. There are differences between various regimes that one has to acknowledge, but human rights concepts must remain universal. What are the most active human rights organisations in the developed world? There are various organisations, both governmental and non-governmental, that are active worldwide. Many of these play a commendable role, and the NCHR cooperates with many of them. We are interested in cooperating with any human rights organisation that has a solid reputation and no hidden agenda to promote.
