Pope Tawadros II has put you in charge of handling the “Cathedral incident”. What do you have to say about this situation? In all honesty, I believe that things have calmed down and that the attacks (on Christians), ugly as they were, have receded. We thank God that the (attacks) didn't continue, or the situation would have been dire for Egypt. It is really terrible. We saw bullets and firebombs fall on the roof of the nearby gas station. Had this gas station blown up, the entire neighbourhood of Abbasiya would have caught fire.
There have been conflicting accounts about the incident. What happened was that the mourners who came to the funeral were in their thousands. As they were leaving (the Cathedral) quietly and peacefully, we were shocked to see clashes taking place and a crowd gathering outside the Cathedral. Meanwhile, the police did nothing. They just stood there watching, as if the whole matter was not the concern of the security forces. Not one of the attackers was arrested. Instead, we saw the security forces firing tear gas at the Cathedral and the mourners. On an occasion such as that, one would have expected tight security around the Cathedral. It is not a secret that some of the Coptic youths were angry and willing to defend their Church in any manner.
Why did the Ministry of Interior men act in this manner? Because they have no security plans. The Cathedral needed to be protected because of the large number of mourners and the discontent among the Copts following the incidents in Khosous (site of recent attacks on Copts). And yet the security forces allowed the thugs and aggressors to launch an assault. It was terrible. This is not the security we are used to having in this country.
So the security forces simply decided to refrain from interfering in any way? I don't know what goes on in the minds of the Interior Ministry people. You can ask them yourself.
Pope Tawadros II was scheduled to attend the funeral of the victims of Khosous. But he didn't attend, which came as a surprise. Yes, the pope made plans to attend but was held back by other engagements and by numerous meetings in Alexandria.
You told me after the January Revolution that despotism was the hallmark of the previous era. What do you have to say about the current era? This is an era of confusion. This is what it is all about. There is no agreement among the political groups. There is a lack of strategy for the future. There is no economic plan for growth and development. There is no societal plan for looking into the post-revolutionary era. We live without a plan, a vision, or political, economic, and social programmes. We live on hope.
Can you confirm reports of Coptic immigration to Israel? I don't believe that (immigration is happening). This is not an easy matter. I am convinced that the Copts reject this immigration. We tell the Copts that for us anyone who goes to Israel and gets married there will be seen as a traitor of Egypt and of Arabism and as an enemy. Israel is a country that usurps Palestinian rights.
Does Israel want to put the Copts in an embarrassing situation? Israel wants to spy on the state and on the Church. And let me tell you that it can spy on any country through its intelligence services.
Would it spy on the Church? As I told you, it spies on the entire world.
What is your opinion of the rebellious youths? They have a lot of energy that needs to be channelled through dialogue and interaction. We need to benefit from the leadership qualities appearing in their midst.
I was at the Cathedral during the clashes, and some of the youths told me they were angry with the pope. I know what you're getting at. This is not a rebellion on their part, but rather a reproach, to which they are entitled. But they have to know that the pope has to act in a calculated manner and that his hands are tied. He really was unable to come to Cairo at that particular time.
What do you think of the rebellion by some of the Coptic youth movements against the Church, and of the critical remarks they make? I wouldn't call it a rebellion. But I expect some people to criticise us. We understand the circumstances of our youths. And we approach them with love and compassion. We talk to them in conferences and seminars. [Laughing] You should stop rebelling against me yourself.
How did you react to claims, made by some Salafi and Muslim Brotherhood leaders, that there are militias inside the Church? This is a joke. It is a sick joke and a load of nonsense. The Copts may act violently sometimes. But this is not a Christian conduct and we do not condone it.
Are there weapons inside the Church? [A dismissive laugh] You forgot to mention the tanks. This is just ridiculous. We don't have weapons. Or we would have used them to defend the churches, especially the Cathedral. Everyone knows that. But some people wish to defame the Church and cause sedition.
You always tell me that the Copts have the protection of God and of Muslims. Yes, I said so and I still believe so. We have the protection of God, of course. He will not abandon us. We also have the protection of moderate Muslims, who are a majority in Egypt. I sensed (their support) in the aftermath of both the Khosous and the Cathedral incidents. Most of the enlightened Muslims are dismayed at such actions. There are Muslims who came to protect the Cathedral and who spoke out and who act out of patriotism.
To rephrase, are there Church leaders who control the youth, who tell them what to do? To do such a thing would be demeaning both to the Church and the youths. They are free people. They have the right to take any political decisions they want.
There are bishops, whom I know, who have a dictatorial hold on the youths. This is absolutely untrue. I cannot control the way the youths feel and think. I cannot manipulate them, as if by remote control. Only, when they ask for our views, we tell them what we think. The rest is up to them.
With all due respect, allow me ask you this: are the Copts spineless? No, don't say this word. This is an unacceptable insult. I cannot allow it. The Copts are meek and peaceful. But every meek Copt is a lion in his heart. He defends his religion and Church and rights through the law and through love, not by weapons. If you want to defeat your enemy, love him.
How do you react to the requests made by some Copts, especially expatriates, for international protection and foreign intervention as a way to address Coptic problems in Egypt? Whoever makes such calls is truly a traitor of Egypt. I disagree totally. And I cannot understand such demands, which amount to treason of one's country.
But there are calls for foreign intervention. We reject the intervention of foreigners in our internal affairs. International protection is all about political interests. America led the NATO into Libya because of oil. What is happening in Syria now is another example. It's all about interests, not principles. Also, we don't accept outside protection. As I told you, the Copts of Egypt are under the protection of God and, through the bonds of love, by Muslims too.
Do you discuss such matters in churches? Definitely. All our discussions in churches revolve around the fact that our safety depends on having relations of love and tolerance with our Muslim compatriots. God is our protector.
Some called for the finances of the Church to come under government scrutiny. How do you react to this? Government supervision of Church finances is unacceptable. Our funding doesn't come from government money or from taxes. Our funding is made up of donations and contributions by members of the Church. The donation process takes place under well-known regulations that are known in various parishes.
Is Egypt still a police state? No one knows where Egypt is heading. It is in a state of flux. It is neither a political state nor police state, nor anything. Right now, I don't know what it is.
The MB has made accusations against the Church, claiming that the Copts instigated the demonstrations, especially those held in front of Al-Ittihadiya palace. These are all lies and fabrications. The Copts, like the Muslims, march in the streets to express their feelings and their political views. I dare you to find one priest who instigated or instructed the Copts to demonstrate in front of Al-Ittihadiya palace. We do not take part in political demonstrations. The civil and political groups have their views and their supporters, and the Church has nothing to do with it. The Church holds prayer services and it leads its members spiritually. And it instils patriotic feelings in its followers. We tell the Copts to press for their rights in a proper manner, even while demonstrating. Jesus didn't teach us violence.
Is there any communication between you and the National Salvation Front? As a Church, no. The pope doesn't like politics and is staying out of it completely.
Are there any plans to hold a dialogue between the Church and the MB? Not long ago, the MB demanded to talk with the Church. I talked with Pope Shenouda III about this, and he said that political parties can talk to other political parties. As for the Church and the MB, this is a religious matter, and the Church doesn't discuss religious matters. The dialogue has to be held by political parties. Mind you, we once wanted to open a dialogue between the youths of both sides, and the State Security refused to allow it. Now, we have a bigger barrier than the State Security, for there are tensions all around. If we try to get the youths together to talk under the current circumstances, something untoward may happen. A heated debate may trigger differences and further estrangement. So there is no point.
But things are different now, for the MB is in power. Even so, my advice to the (MB) is this: rule through national consensus and not through one faction.
Some Copts are leaving for Georgia to live there, although it is a poor country. What is your comment? Yes, some Coptic youths go to Georgia because of the recession we're having here. The Copts discovered that travelling to Georgia is relatively easy, so they went there and started businesses. [Laughing] May they succeed. It'll be good for Egypt, and a way to lessen the population pressure.
Is it good for Egypt to see its sons leaving? Not necessarily, but you have to do what you have to do. I don't like immigration, but we will continue to take care of our sons.
Some people have criticised the performance of Coptic members of the Shura Council. I don't wish to get into personal matters. Coptic parliamentarians have their own opinions and they don't speak for the Church. Some of them are not doing much. But who said that our rights should be secured by the Coptic parliamentarians? On the contrary, we want Muslim deputies to defend Coptic rights without fear. We don't want to see sectarianism taking hold of the parliament.
The Church always speaks of its support of Al-Azhar. Tell us more about the relations between the two. It is a relationship of amity, cooperation and common national stands. The Church speaks to Al-Azhar through Anba Armia, and Al-Azhar speaks to us through Mahmoud Azab, the adviser to the grand imam. We always meet and talk. Al-Azhar is a bastion of moderation and patriotism.
But there are attempts to diminish the role of Al-Azhar in the region? Al-Azhar knows how to take care of that. It is a venerable organisation that enjoys the respect of everyone in the Middle East and the Islamic world. I will tell you, honestly, that Al-Azhar came under pressure to endorse political laws and ideas and other whims of the regime. But Al-Azhar is stronger than all these pressures.
Let's talk about the youths' section of the Church, and the sports. You had an interest in sports in the Church, and even organised a tournament for churches. Tell us more about it? It's not the tournament that matters, but having an activity that leads to the healthy growth of the youngsters. The youths need spiritual nourishment, intellectual awareness, psychological control, healthy physique and social skills. This is why they need to engage in sports, as part of their personal growth.
You have football fields in churches? We only have one field and all the churches rent it. The Church is interested in sports. Anything wrong with that?
But cannot this lead to the isolation of Coptic youths from the rest of society? This is not our intention. We are helping them gain confidence and get ready to be part of society.
But we don't see one Christian player in the Egyptian football league. This is a question to be directed to the league and the Football Association.
So, are you a fan of Ahli or Zamalek? I am a fan of good athleticism. As a patriot, I root for the national team. When our national team won the cup I couldn't sleep all night and I went out to the balcony to share the joy of the youths roaming the streets. But I don't confine myself to rooting for one club. No need for this kind of fanaticism.
I see you sometimes play table tennis. Do you play any other sports? I play with the youths to encourage them. And they keep beating me — little devils. I like table tennis, but I am not good at it.
