Insulted by Israel

Yehia Ghanem in Johannesburg interviews Ronnie Kasrils, South Africa's Minister of Water Affairs, on the latest row over his biting criticism of Israel's oppression of the Palestinians
Ronnie Kasrils, South Africa's Minister of Water Affairs, is Jewish. But he is an outspoken critic of atrocities committed against the Palestinian people by Israeli forces. Recently, Kasrils issued a "Declaration of Conscience" with a number of Jewish South African intellectuals condemning Israel's repressive treatment of the Palestinians and calling for the Palestinians to be given their own independent state. The Declaration of Conscience drew fierce criticism from Zionist organisations in South Africa, who accused Kasrils of anti-Semitism. Kasrils, a veteran of the struggle against apartheid in South Africa, remains unruffled.
Did you expect the current backlash over the Declaration of Conscience?
I did. But I was hoping that the attacks would not get personal or develop into a hate campaign of the type seen now. Such campaigns are not surprising, though. The main figure in the offensive is the South African chief rabbi, a man known for his antiquated views and profound bitterness.
It has become an article of faith to resist any criticism of Israel. So, I was not surprised to see the South African Jewish Parliamentary Council call me anti-Semitic or seek to isolate me from the South African Jewish community.
What is your reaction to the hate campaign?
The hate campaign aims to discredit me and the Jewish intellectuals who signed the Declaration of Conscience. We have been described as an insignificant minority whose views should not be taken seriously.
The irony is: this is the same accusation senior Jewish figures levelled at the members of the Jewish community who fought against apartheid. Once apartheid collapsed, the same figures hailed us as heroes.
Why did you issue the Declaration of Conscience?
I am insulted by what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. My conscience is heavy and hurt by Israel's policy toward the Palestinian people. I want to make it clear that Israel is not speaking in the name of the world Jewry. I do not support Israel's policy. I fully support the cause of the Palestinians and their right to self-determination.
Do you believe the Jews and Arabs should live together in a single secular state?
As a communist, I am appalled that Israel, a Jewish state, restricts the right of return to Jews. When we were fighting against apartheid rule in South Africa, we rejected the idea of a divided homeland. Because of this, I dream of a secular state embracing all religions, and even the disbelievers.
But it is hard to change the status quo in Palestine for the time being. Israel should accept the establishment of an independent Palestinian state. Later on, cooperation between the two entities may develop to the point where a federal state is a possibility.
Is it true that South Africa will send a delegation to Israel and the Palestinian territories to engage in mediation?
First of all, I was invited several times to visit Israel and I declined because of what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. Last January, talks were held in South Africa, under the auspices of President Thabo Mbeki, between a delegation of Israel's Labour Party and Palestinian Authority representatives. This is a path that deserves to be explored further, and it may culminate in sending a South African delegation, but no decision has been made yet to this effect.
Don't you think that Israel's repression has reached levels surpassing even that of the apartheid regime?
Personally, I do not think it fair to compare what is happening now to the Palestinians and any excesses going on in the world. Nor is it fair to compare apartheid rule in South Africa with the conduct of Israel and those who support it.
The South African apartheid regime never engaged in the sort of repression Israel is inflicting on the Palestinians. For all the evils and atrocities of apartheid, the government never sent tanks into black towns. It never used gunships, bombers, or missiles against the black towns or Bantustans. The apartheid regime used to impose sieges on black towns, but these sieges were lifted within days. Soldiers used to search homes and conduct a variety of punitive measures, but none of these can be compared with Israel's repressive actions, and its siege of entire towns and villages for months on end.
Israel's Prime Minister Sharon has called repeatedly on South African Jews to immigrate to Israel.
There are 85,000 Jews in South Africa. The South African government and people feel insulted by Sharon's calls on South African Jews to immigrate to Israel and his hints that they are not safe.
You may notice that Sharon made similar calls on French Jews because of France's recurring opposition to Israel's policy. Sharon never calls on Jews of the United Kingdom or the United States to immigrate to Israel, for he is confident of the support these two countries give to Israel.
It would have been a better policy for Sharon to encourage the Jews to stay in South Africa, don't you think?
Look at Sharon's history and you would realise that he is ignorant and does not understand politics. Since the 1950s, all Sharon could think of was killing and harassing the Arabs and especially Palestinians, so as to drive them away from their homes and replace them with Jewish immigrants. There has been no change in his Zionist tactics.
I have to say this to South African Jews who are thinking about immigrating to Israel: Do you really want to leave South Africa to go to the most dangerous place on earth?
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